Signature Series Numbers

[DiscjockeyDale]

Jimball, it is tiring to repreat endlessly that the technology necessary to maufacture a leaning, narrow vehicle exists and can be seen on the road (in Europe) on a daily basis. Scooters with this technology (tilting, two front wheels) are quite popular and all that is holding back the production of a fully enclosed vehicle is the present day international classification that limits the design to the existing, ludicrous three wheelers without an anclosure. Technical publications express the view that all attempts to change the international classification have been thwarted by the US auto industry with the argument that vehicles must remain stable while driving sideways along a steep incline! This is clearly designed to protect US SUV production.

I fully accept that you have every right to enjoy any new toy that you may choose. But please do not classify technology as "mythical"  merely because it is (as yet) unknown in your neck of the woods.

To the best of my knowledge, there is absolutely no such thing as an "international classification" system that includes the US.
And I've researched/studied the US NHTSA classifications and regulations extensively.

US compliance requirements and classifications have nothing to do with any other country's compliance requirements and/or classifications and vice versa.

If you have any links to information that indicates otherwise, I'd be interested in taking a look at those links and that information.

Beyond that, one would certainly hope that vehicles would be required to be stable while driving sideways along a steep incline by any and all regulating bodies regardless of outside influence.

[paravil]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_category

My information is that the US is a signatory

"Beyond that, one would certainly hope that vehicles would be required to be stable while driving sideways along a steep incline by any and all regulating bodies regardless of outside influence."

Dale, just think about it for a minute! Roads that run along the side of a steep hill do not (to my knowledge) have the same camber as the incline of the hill!
But maybe they do in parts of the US????

And I don´t think that may people would be stupid enough to park a bike on its stand sideways on a steep incline.

[Rickb]

Stupid people and profit driven vehicle manufacturers looking to cut corners on vehicle safety is why there are vehicle classes and regulation.  It seems like 50% of the population is stupid and the 1% control them.  

You wouldn't think people would be stupid enough to text and drive either as they park or drive their top heavy vehicles on a steep incline.  

Note:  Sorry to say there is no market demand for narrow tilting 3 or 4 wheel vehicles beyond the 2 of us.  Better to enjoy a FUNctional new toy now (if it meets your personal needs) than to wait for a new toy that likely will never come market. A little affordable FUNction that has low operational and maintenance cost is better than no fun at all.

[DanCooper]

The existing tilting trikes are passive tilters. They will behave exactly like a 2-wheeler, except that you can stop without putting your feet down. This might make it possible to add side enclosures to one that already has a windshield and roof. If you want a lot more safety than a motorcycle, you will need a certain amount of extra width for a crumple zone, as in the FUV.

For me, the FUV is ideal. Yes, I keep thinking of improvements. For example, I might like all wheel drive, to get up the 15% grade to my home in Winter. But two wheel drive will probably be sufficient, with studded snow tires. If it isn't, I envision a sprocket and chain, driven by a small motor that could provide torque up to about 15 mph and then freewheel. Another modification could be a fast charger to enable long distance trips, once the infrastructure is in place. I certainly wouldn't ask Arcimoto to add these things. They would be my own customizations.

I could even see wanting two FUVs, since my wife and I often go different places.

[DiscjockeyDale]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_category

My information is that the US is a signatory

Do you have a link that specifically lists the US as a signatory to the UNECE Consolidated Resolution on the Construction of Vehicles (R.E.3)?
And/or documentation that shows the US UN representative has argued against voting to re-classifying enclosed three-wheelers in that resolution?

Even if the US UN representative was a signatory to these guidelines, the US does not use the UNECE resolution as their guideline.
The NHTSA, their definitions, categories, requirements and regulations are independent of outside governance and/or non-US constraints.

While the US is a member of the UNECE, the UNECE stands for United Nations Economic Commission for Europe.
Canada is also a member and enclosed three wheeled vehicles in Canada are categorized as cars.

From your link... "In Europe, the classifications for vehicle category are based in UNECE standards and defined by:[4]

• Regulation (EU) No. 168/2013 of the European Parliament and the Council of 15 January 2013 on the approval and market surveillance of two- or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles.[5]
  
• Commission Directive 2001/116/EC of 20 December 2001, adapting to technical progress Council Directive 70/156/EEC on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to the type-approval of motor vehicles and their trailers.[6]"
  

Is the United States a member of the European Parliament and/or the Council of 15 January 2013 on the approval and market surveillance of two- or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles?

Keep in mind that like most other UN resolutions, these are more suggested guidelines and are not international law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_category

And I don´t think that may people would be stupid enough to park a bike on its stand sideways on a steep incline.

You and I? probably not. But do a search on Youtube for some that apparently are. LOL

I am completely in favor of narrow enclosed tilting vehicles.
But first and foremost they have to be pretty darned stable with that narrow stance...
Since by enclosing them, you're eliminating the ability of supporting them by putting your foot/feet down.

[paravil]

Rick:- "Note: Sorry to say there is no market demand for narrow tilting 3 or 4 wheel vehicles beyond the 2 of us." I´m sure you´re able to see the folly of that observation! If there´s a relevant international market for motorbikes, who is to say that there isn´t one for an enclosed motorbike? May I remind you of your own enthusiasm for the Lit C-1 and that of the many followers on the Lit web site.

It has been noted above that members of the public might well be wary of a tilting (leaning) vehicle. But I can assure them that leaning into a turn feels a lot safter than a forced upright position that is in direct contrast to the forces of gravity.

Dale:- I was afraid you´d come up with further questions like that!! I haven´t the time or the energy to do much in the way of further analysis. If I remember correctly, I came across the `ìncline parking´ argument in an internet discussion some time ago. Further to that, Phillip James referred to the limitations of the internationally agreed categories in the documentation that is no longer to be found on his new, curtailed web site.

If and when the United States sells vehicles outside its borders, they have to comply with the published, internationally agreed categories and further regulations. Within its borders, exemptions can be permitted.

I can see no other explanation for the lack of enclosures for the Twizy or the SRK. The Solo is likely registered under a Canadian, national exemption.

[Rickb]

Rick:- "Note:  Sorry to say there is no market demand for narrow tilting 3 or 4 wheel vehicles beyond the 2 of us."  I´m sure you´re able to see the folly of that observation! If there´s a relevant international market for motorbikes, who is to say that there isn´t one for an enclosed motorbike? May I remind you of your own enthusiasm for the Lit C-1 and that of the many followers on the Lit web site.

It has been noted above that members of the public might well be wary of a tilting (leaning) vehicle. But I can assure them that leaning into a turn feels a lot safter than a forced upright position that is in direct contrast to the forces of gravity.

If and when the United States sells vehicles outside its borders, they have to comply with the published, internationally agreed categories and further regulations. Within its borders, exemptions can be  permitted.

I can see no other explanation for the lack of enclosures for the Twizy or the SRK. The Solo is likely registered under a Canadian, national exemption.

Yes, it's been so long in coming I needed a reminder.  Everybody I've talked with about a tilting 3 wheeler ask why the tilt?  Who cares?  Little to no interest means no market demand for mass production of a tilting vehicle that makes it affordable for the few that do. Rich man's toy category like the Mono Tracer and the CarverOne.   Kim is still working on the C-1.  When he scores on production I'll be 2nd in line right behind you.  

Note on EU Certification:

[Sniffy]

The existing tilting trikes are passive tilters. They will behave exactly like a 2-wheeler, except that you can stop without putting your feet down. 

So, would you consider the Piaggio MP3 a passive tilter?  I have several co-workers who, like me, are commute-challenged.  There are a few three wheelers in the parking lot on any given day, including one Piaggio and a couple of Can-Am Spyders.  

Those I've spoken to in the three wheeler group all express relief when talking about switching from two wheels to three.  Stopping without tapdancing the asphalt is the unanimous best advantage.

[paravil]

Yes Rick. I think we´ve already agreed that you (and your fellow customers) are in the market for a totally different vehicle. You want a `fun´ runabout, whereas most potential customers outside the U.S. are waiting for some form of urban transport that will get a driver and maybe one passenger quickly and safely, in comfort from A to B in congested, urban traffic, and be able to park almost anywhere.

This would have to be a small, narrow two seater. And, being narrow, would have to have the capability of titling into a turn.

Almost every major manufacturer has come up with a prototype for this type of vehicle, but is unable to commence production under existing legal resitrictions. In Europe, Japan, India, China and in a great many other markets, there is clearly a very visible demand. So this is NOT a `rich man´s toy´ !

Neither the SRK, nor the Solo fulfil the requisite technical specs. Neither of them will thread through urban traffic faster than a normal car. Nor will they be easier to park (like the Smart, they would take up one parking space, regardless of size). They are purely `fun´ vehicles (i.e. `toys´).

I am NOT looking for a toy, I want an alternative to a motorbike.

[Rickb]

Yes Rick. I think we´ve already agreed that you (and your fellow customers) are in the market for a totally different vehicle. You want a `fun´ runabout, whereas most potential customers outside the U.S. are waiting for some form of urban transport that will get a driver and maybe one passenger quickly and safely, in comfort from A to B in congested, urban traffic, and be able to park almost anywhere.

Almost every major manufacturer has come up with a prototype for this type of vehicle, but is unable to commence production under existing legal resitrictions. In Europe, Japan, India, China and in a great many other markets, there is clearly a very visible demand. So this is NOT a `rich man´s toy´ !

Neither the SRK, nor the Solo fulfil the requisite technical specs. Neither of them will thread through urban traffic faster than a normal car. Nor will they be easier to park (like the Smart, they would take up one parking space, regardless of size). They are purely `fun´ vehicles (i.e. `toys´).

I am NOT looking for a toy, I want an alternative to a motorbike.

Your description fits the FUV perfectly for the USA market, but apparently not yours. 3 FUVs in the space of one car to maximize parking space, much easier to park, and certainly more agile in my urban downtown condo living environment than my current car. 

I'm looking for a FUNctional vehicle to meet my personal needs, not a toy.  I want a motorcycle as a supplement to my car.  

Mass production is required to make an enclosed cabin narrow tilter affordable to the masses.  The $24K price tag on the C-1 made it an expensive toy for most USA commuters.  Obviously your EU market and your needs are different than mine......but please don't call the FUNctional everyday electric that meets my needs a toy.  It will be affordable, functional for 2 occupants, save money in fuel cost/maintenance, and simply be more fun to drive than my current everyday vehicle. I would prefer a narrow tilter.  Please send me an email alert when you find one and I'll trade in the FUV.