FUV gets 173.7 MPGe ???

[ben]

The FUV can reach a top speed of 75 mph (121 km/h) and sports an estimated city range of 102.5 miles (165 km). Arcimoto claims that the FUV reaches an efficiency of 173.7 MPGe.
https://electrek.co/2020/11/30/arcimoto-...c-vehicle/

just wondering under what conditions does the FUV reach an efficiency of 173.7 MPGe the reason I ask is have a gut feeling that overall in the real world its actually much less?!

this is because for sake of argument lets say the high voltage battery in the FUV stores about 20KwH of energy 

27:32 [THE FUV BATTERY] ...it's 19.2 (KwH)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dje2WD_YfpQ&t=27m32s

AND on average 1 KwH of energy creates about 1lb of CO2 AND lets also assume that burning 1 gal of gas in an internal combustion engine creates about 20 lbs of CO2 AND lastly from news articles lets estimate that the range of the FUV is about 100 miles 

(NOTE all these figures have been rounded off to make the mental calculations simple)

on average, one kilowatt-hour creates 1.13 pounds of carbon dioxide
https://www.blueskymodel.org/kilowatt-hour

On average, one gallon of gasoline produces a little over 18 pounds of carbon dioxide (CO2)
http://www.blueskymodel.org/gallon-gas

...IOW the FUV uses 20KwH of energy to go 100 miles AND since 20 KwH creates about 20 lbs of CO2 AND that 1 gal of gas (looking at the chemical combustion process) creates 20 lbs of CO2,... so the real world efficiency of the FUV is actually about 100 MPGe ??? (this to me seems more real world ball park figure for MPGe because of the high parasitic current draw caused by among other things the "high voltage" battery pack always charging the 12 volt electronic brains system battery)

https://www.gmforum.com/howto/1998SM/par...edures.pdf

"over all" wish the energy use (in an FUV) to travel a given distance was better than 100 MPGe, but from my own short term experience having the FUV (here in San Diego), its been pretty nice to have a windscreen along with heated seats to run errands and goto covid events like,...

https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-news...lboa-park/

actually given the small size and maneuverability of the FUV we were able to avoid the gridlock at this drive-up event (where there were lots of SUVs)

[CharonPDX]

It isn't based on CO2, it's based on energy consumption. 1 gallon of gas is considered by standard to contain 120 MJ (120 million Joules) of energy. (U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology says that 1 gallon of "base gasoline" is equivalent to 5.660 pounds of Natural Gas; and that Natural Gas has an energy density of 20,160 BTU per pound. Thus gasoline is 114,000 BTU per gallon. Convert BTU to kWh with 3,413 BTU/kWh, and you get 33.41 kWh/gallon of gasoline.

1 kWh of electrical storage is equal to 3.6 MJ (Pure unit conversion.)

It's the official EPA rating based on battery and range - it isn't a perfect mathematical comparison, the EPA's calculations are even off what the "international standard" is

The EPA's official math is that 33.7 kWh is equal to one gallon of gas. So 102 miles per 19.8 kWh (the official rating of the Arcimoto's battery) is 173 miles per "effective gallon" using EPA's official math. (The EPA's estimate isn't *too* far off the "NIST standard by way of a bunch of conversions" of 33.41 kWh/gallon-gas-equivalent.)

They legally *CAN'T* advertise any number other than the EPA number. No matter how far off the EPA's number might be. (That's why there's the phrase "your mileage may vary" - car companies can only advertise MPG based on what the EPA numbers say - so if those numbers are unrealistically high, that's just what the car companies have to go with. In 2006, the EPA re-did the math on how gasoline cars' numbers were calculated, which dropped the Prius from 60 MPG in the city to 48 MPG. That was a *HUGE* drop, but it also came a lot closer to real world.)

[ben]

It isn't based on CO2, it's based on energy consumption. 1 gallon of gas is considered by standard to contain 120 MJ (120 million Joules) of energy. (U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology says that 1 gallon of "base gasoline" is equivalent to 5.660 pounds of Natural Gas; and that Natural Gas has an energy density of 20,160 BTU per pound. Thus gasoline is 114,000 BTU per gallon. Convert BTU to kWh with 3,413 BTU/kWh, and you get 33.41 kWh/gallon of gasoline.

1 kWh of electrical storage is equal to 3.6 MJ (Pure unit conversion.)

doing a quick google search for the phase "what is MPGe" points to articles how to do MPGe calculations, for example

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/what-is-mpge

if you read the linked to article, aside from per unit energy "distance" you'll also see the article breaks down the "cost" per mile (IOW there are various ways of looking at a product)

the point I was trying to make (and actually find out more info about) is do others interested in Arcimoto really understand the concept of an environmental foot print

https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint

the reason I ask is because a few years ago there was a survey done in my home town of san diego to see what level of understanding there was in the general public about the scientific mechanism that causes climate change (sadly the findings in the study were zero individuals were able to correctly give the right answer)

thinking the findings were a fluke, did my own informal poll (at a tech startup conference and at an environment group meetup) about the mechanism of the so called "green house effect" AND sadly confirmed the findings in the published paper (which found that there essentially zero understanding of the mechanisms that cause climate change in the public at large)

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full...tops.12187

I'm not a formal working climate scientist, but do have a physics back ground and became interested in the topic of climate change after a taking seminar class many decades ago,... basically ever since then thought it was common knowledge that greenhouse gasses are worrisome specifically because they trap infrared energy AND the reason climate change happens (e.g. ice ages) is due to of long term periods where the earth is further away from the sun (so less energy is absorbed by the earth)

http://www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

anyway one of the reasons I bought an early production FUV aside from the "fun" driving factor is specifically because the CO2 produced per unit distance traveled is lower than a typical four wheel vehicle

I have a few other cars in my stable so to speak, along with an electric bike AND what I've discovered in my short term FUV owner ship is indeed the FUV is my go to vehicle of choice for getting around my local neck of the woods (just wish all the bugs were worked out before taking delivery BUT being an early production owner, knew to expect other wise)

[CharonPDX]

And you can significantly lower your CO2 further by choosing renewable electricity sources. I am on my utility's "Green Source" plan, and I'm in the process of getting solar panels installed. My FUV (plus my other EV) are completely carbon-neutral in operation, only have production CO2 - which is easily overcome by operating CO2 going away.

[ben]

And you can significantly lower your CO2 further by choosing renewable electricity sources. I am on my utility's "Green Source" plan, and I'm in the process of getting solar panels installed.

lots of people concerned w/ environmental issues are buying EVs and/or putting solar panels on their home

I just wonder how many self professed "environmentalists" actually understand CO2 levels in a big picture context

the reason I bring up this specific point is because seems until "environmentalists" actually have a grasp of rising CO2 levels in a big picture context AND can point out the actual science to doubters of man made climate change (and somehow make them care),... there is going to be lots of political bickering

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-enviro...nt-address





https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UysGfUq...lybrx/view

My FUV (plus my other EV)

curious what is your other EV

[CharonPDX]

Yes, I think most people who call themselves environmentalists do understand the CO2 issues. The problem isn't those that understand, the problem is those who put their heads in the sand and willfully deny even attempting to understand.

My other EV is a BMW i3. (Which was for a while the most efficient EV available until a Hyundai or Kia surpassed it.)

[DanCooper]

I need an EV as a second vehicle only. There are no charging stations near here and any place I might go out of town is out of range for most EVs. And I don't need two cars. My wife is in France now with her daughter and new grandson. She saw a boxy little thing in the road. It was a Citroen Ami. It is a small 2-seat EV, much lower performance than an FUV, and much less expensive. It would be an ideal city car in a town where you don't need to go at highway speeds. In fact, I could use it here if it had enough torque to get up my 20% hill, but I can't import that or any other vehicle that is not DOT approved. Land of the free. If America continues to go down the authoritarian road I will move back to France. It will probably happen before I have a chance to get an FUV.

[DanCooper]

Toyota released a city EV for sale in Japan. It is called the C+pod. It is a two-seater, about the size of the Citroen Ami, but it has more power and range: 37 mph, 93 miles. But I can't get that and I can't get the Ami and I can't get the FUV.

[SparkE]

I need an EV as a second vehicle only. There are no charging stations near here and any place I might go out of town is out of range for most EVs. And I don't need two cars. My wife is in France now with her daughter and new grandson. She saw a boxy little thing in the road. It was a Citroen Ami. It is a small 2-seat EV, much lower performance than an FUV, and much less expensive. It would be an ideal city car in a town where you don't need to go at highway speeds. In fact, I could use it here if it had enough torque to get up my 20% hill, but I can't import that or any other vehicle that is not DOT approved. Land of the free. If America continues to go down the authoritarian road I will move back to France. It will probably happen before I have a chance to get an FUV.

Well, have you considered buying a used EV for city use ? A 4-5 year old Spark, or Fiat 500, or Smart (I'd stay away from 1st gen LEAFs) should be obtainable, with < 50K miles , for $6-8K. (In fact, there are several under $8K EVs near me with < 25K miles.) All three are "modified" (based on) gas cars but are electric so they are freeway capable, have doors and heaters and A/C and seat 4 people (except the Smart, which only seats 2).

Electrics have very little maintenance (no oil changes, radiator flushes, tuneups, hose or water pump replacement, etc) and the motors should last for >200k miles. The thing that wears out is the battery, which will lose capacity over time. (Also true of the FUV as well, I expect.) I bought a SparkEV for my "suburban" driving (up to 70-90 miles around the area) and rarely drive the gas car anymore (just for trips - or maybe once a month when I have to drive > 20 miles in order to keep the 12V battery charged, and to run oil through the engine). I think I've put about 12k miles on it over 3 years. (There was a 10 month period in the middle when I drove the gasmobile "all the time" since my wife wrecked my first Spark and I waited until I found exactly what I wanted before buying another one.) As my EV slowly loses capacity, and the 100 miles (ish) city range (~80 miles freeway) dwindles it will still be my main vehicle as we rarely drive over 30 miles a day, and *maybe* once a month drive 50-70 miles. And if the range is "good enough" for another 4-6 years there will be a HUGE number of used EVs with a range of 200+ miles for me to complement my Spark. Maybe a used Tesla model 3 or Chevy Bolt or Kia Niro or ...  even a gen2 LEAF (depending on battery longevity history).

I waited and waited and waited for the FUV and finally gave up and bought a used EV instead. I still think the FUV is a neat idea and at the original price of $12K (and offered in 2018) I think that it would have been a HUGE success, filling several niche markets including the "low cost EV" market which just isn't represented AT ALL in the US. There are always rumors about the low-cost EV imports from China or India or South Korea that will be arriving "next year or the year after". I mean an EV that has (maybe) 50-80 miles range, pases the US safety laws and crash tests, and costs $12k. That is the *perfect* 2nd car for a lot of families (or 3rd car for the kid going to high school or community college locally). All those countries already have low-cost EVs that cost HALF that - or less - but no way they pass US safety laws. Just create a US version based on the old one, but with all the safety issues resolved (especially crash-worthiness), charge double or triple what you charge in India. Or, better yet, assemble it in the US and charge $16k.

All that being said I have hope that with (supposedly) "soon" arriving next generation batteries already announced by several companies (double the energy density for the a much lower price per kWh) that the next-gen FUV will be either sold for a cheaper price or have extended range (or both).

[ben]

I need an EV as a second vehicle only. There are no charging stations near here and any place I might go out of town is out of range for most EVs. And I don't need two cars. My wife is in France now with her daughter and new grandson. She saw a boxy little thing in the road. It was a Citroen Ami. It is a small 2-seat EV, much lower performance than an FUV, and much less expensive. It would be an ideal city car in a town where you don't need to go at highway speeds. In fact, I could use it here if it had enough torque to get up my 20% hill, but I can't import that or any other vehicle that is not DOT approved. Land of the free. If America continues to go down the authoritarian road I will move back to France. It will probably happen before I have a chance to get an FUV.

interesting,...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/28/cars/citr...index.html

actually had to laugh at the "deux chevaux" photo (in the linked article) because it reminded me of a time I had a chance drive one many years ago when I was visiting friends in CH

yeah I hear ya about about the difficulty of not being able to import a vehicle that is not DOT approved, in CA the bureaucracy is a real pain in the back side,... my dad who was an aerospace engineer drilled into me at a pretty young age the importance of KISS (keep it simple) design so as a kid @ university in the late 80's looked at vehicles I thought would last and be inexpensive over the long run, so bought a used euro spec 123 series Mercedes (i.e. a basic model diesel w/ a manual transmission and no fancy equipment),... learned it needed to be federalized, so learned all about adding "side protection" basically welding square tube in the door panels, changing out the bumpers, lighting, etc., etc., etc.

still have my old diesel benz but bought the FUV because IMHO it's a perfect runabout

since you specifically mentioned "enough torque"  to get up a 20% hill, just to let you know the FUV is very capable/comfortable of going up/down a 20+% grade,... in the neighborhood I live in there are lots of hills and going down steep 20+% grade the FUV on regen creeps down the hill at just about 5mph (just like my Mercedes diesel in first gear)

as far as price point vs performance,... personally would buy an FUV over a Citroen Ami or a Toyota C+pod (which from what I've read is comparable in performance to a GEM EV),... FYI for a while actually thought of buying a GEM

https://gem.polaris.com/en-us/e2/

but having had the chance to drive one in a hilly area on public roads, made me take a pass on that idea

hopeful soon Arcimoto is able to ramp up production w/ a bullet-proof product (some of the components I've learned need to be sorted, reading what other FUV owners have posted on Facebook),... so the target price point of $12K is hit

https://www.facebook.com/groups/34321886...910089524/